Endquest - episode for Heretic

PVS says:

This is very good maps, great work!

E1M3:
- medusa-textures are used;
- many ambient sounds, 8 maximum;
- sectors 140,141: double secret;
- closer to the end the green door is closed (for example, linedef 1611), the player may have a chaos device from the previous E1M2 map, if he uses it after the moment when the green door is closed - player will get stuck, because he can not be open green door again;
- action linedefs 1105 and 1587 close to each other, this is not work on vanilla, you can move the action from 1105 to 668 linedef. The same with 228, 1557, 195 and 200 linedefs;
- extra-spawn sector 386: Mages sometimes get stuck there forever, you can reduce the height of the sector;
- auto-map: it is necessary to hide all working extra-spawn sectors, auxiliary sectors;
- it would be good to have a possibility to return from the final map area, for example, to place the chaos device there.

More, I do not see anything wrong, I finish map several times: skill 4, k 152/152, i 18/18, s 5/5. The balance is good.
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Egregor, I see that for you and the rest of the team - is not target that these maps works on the original engine + limit removing, your goal is ZDoom, right? Because, I can run only E1M2, E1M4, E1M6 from this wad on Crispy Heretic, all the rest do not even start, which means that the map authors do not test maps on original engines.

I can help only with maps that I can run on original engine, because I never like play Heretic on ZDoom. Of course, do not worry, I'm will not share this maps, this is work of other people, but the maps are really good and ZDoom Heretic players will be happy :)

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In this moment I was able to run 8 maps on Crispy Heretic: E1M2 - E1M9, for this need small optimizations and changes, similar to those that I gave for E1M3, E1M1 have strange problems on vanilla, do not know what was going on - crash without errors. Further, I will not give the technical points which I noticed and that do not work for vanilla game, I'm sure - for you and the rest of the team it's not interesting, I'll try to assume - that may be relevant only for ZDoom engine.

E1M2:
- all map mechanics work fine, secrets can be achieved;
- in my opinion, there are not enough ammo, I finish map several times on skill 4, tried be neatly and save ammo, but to the final zone - I always remained completely without ammunition, I can get finish map, of course, but I could not kill all monsters and make max. If play this map after E1M1 - this should fix the situation and ammunition should be enough;
- at the end present almost ready area, which can be used for increase the duration of the gameplay on this map;

I'm pretty sure that I've seen this map before, but I can not remember - where?

E1M4:
- sector 24: need flip linedefs 2352, 2353 for lift lowering,
sector 517: need flip linedef 1927 for lift lowering.
I'm not sure - ZDoom allows this?
- secret sector 471: never counted, you can move secret to sector 460;
- auto-map: it is necessary to hide all working extra-spawn sectors, auxiliary sectors;
- sectors with FLTSLUDx floor texture do not damage the player, it's somehow not classic, when I'm in sectors with this floor texture I immediately expect it to be dangerous and take my hp;
- for a long time I could not find the main exit, I could not guess that I need to go on this scrolling texture, I think, it would be more understandable if also place here exit teleport glitters.

Map contains two exits? This is an interesting decision. Long played this map with savegames, big open areas with tons of monsters on pedestals, they shoot at you from all sides - I hate such moments, heh
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I'm working on E1M8, I use the exit area preparation that maybe author planned. Let me know if you want to see, here it is the other way around - you need to test :)

PVS says:

Hi Egregor! I’m not sure that you will read this, maybe you have published these maps long time ago, I just don’t know about this, but...

Some time later I returned to work on these maps, now this wad fully compatible with vanilla limit removing engines. In fact, besides optimizations for vanilla, I did not set the goal to change something on the maps, the maps were very good and I liked everything there. In some places it was necessary to replace part of the textures in order to avoid "tutti frutti" effect in original renderer, in some places I used some of the unused areas, added secrets, lights, etc, but I tried not touch much of the original solutions, because these are not my maps.

My biggest changes were for E1M8, where I added the ending, balance and also tried to make an unusual final area for episode. Also, E1M7 and E1M6 I think they were somewhat unfinished, that I also corrected a little. All maps now have difficulty settings, but in most cases I just reduced monsters quantity and composition for easy and medium skills and almost did not touch artifacts and ammunition, I think it is not necessary, anyway it's better than nothing. I didn’t touch the multiplayer modes, I only checked that there were all starts for co-op and DM, where necessary - I added them, so as not to cause the vanilla engines to crash.

ENDQSTv.hhe file - for Chocolate and forks like Crispy/Russian Heretic, can also be used with DOS Heretic-Plus of course, it replaces the map names, also possible write a story for the final episode text, now it contains an example in the form of a simple 'Ending Quest' authors list. To enable it in Chocolate/Crispy/Russian ports need to add this:
'-deh ENDQSTv.hhe -hhever 1.0' to the command line.

In 'Demos' folder possible find my skill-4 Max'es for all maps, this is vanilla demos and can be used to verify that all maps are played normally. Possible not play maps yourself, just take coffee and watch a movies, heh. All details can be found in demos txt's.

I hope that you and the others guys will not be offended by me, for modifying your maps, I will never publish them anywhere without you, do not worry about this. I did this work simply because of my interest, and I also want that vanilla Heretic to have these good maps. You can use this version as you wish, for example, as an alternative to your original ZDoom project.

Great stuff!

Now this is something i like!

Heretic deserves more love.

@Walter confetti i hope you continue with the kb challenge and made use of the idea of doing different games/iwads challenge.
HacX and Heretic would be really awesome. Maybe even REKKR :D

Egregor, better late than never I agree, only I didn’t understand why did you post all this technical conversation, it is not interesting to anyone, heh. Anyway, it's good that this wad is no longer secret, these are really good maps.

I remembered one moment about the vanilla version, I'm sure nobody is interested in this, but DOS Heretic-Plus will not support E1M6 in this wad, map produces MAXINTERCEPTS overflows very often. I tried to fix this for a long time, but could not without big changes in map geometry and monsters composition. Look at the E1M6 on Heretic-Plus possible only with -nomonsters. Crispy/Russian Heretic support MAXINTERCEPTS limit somewhere since 2019.

Sometimes maps are difficult here, I recommend skill-3, do not hope for mercy, heh
 

Thanks for your work PVS, I will make a point to update the original post to include your version and your credit soon. The reason to post convo is to give a sense of last known update and convo when project went dormint.

IF I can find both the time and the motivation I may give another map  update, most likely within a month from now.

You planning update for this wad? For which maps? Of course, do as you like. You, like me, understand that few people are interested in this maps today, for me personally, this has never been a problem, this is just a hobby, heh

Ah, very nice, finally some Heretic episode without any custom monsters or weapons. I really like the tight ammo balance, I had to employ every ammo-conserving trick I knew, that's rather rare in Heretic mods. I played on UV in GZdoom 4.5.0 and I encountered some bugs, including game-breaking ones:

E1M6: about 20 monsters didn't teleport from the green key monster closet, see the screenshot below. Some of them did teleport when I noclipped there and pushed them with weapons fire.

E1M8: there are several problems here. Firstly, there is no exit. Secondly, I ignored Dsparil and jummped down into the final arena before he started to teleport. Then I couldn't get back up and thus couldn't finish the map without cheats. The final fight was rather tedious too, basically it was running between the two Dsparil teleport locations. Overally, the map is a huge ammo drain, I completely run out and actually had to finish Dsparil with gauntlets even though I had a lot of ammo from previous maps. Also, there are HOMs at linedefs 7766, 8522 and 9301 and teleport linedefs around sector 621 are facing the wrong way.

E1M9: you access the secret map from E1M4, but when you finish it, you will be transported to E1M7. Thus you will entirely skip 2 maps! Also, there should be 1 or 2 more Wings of Wrath - the current number is okay if the player knows exactly where he needs to go, but not for the first time exploration.

And GZdoom complains about some geometry errors:

E1M3 - The Gatehouse
Unknown top texture 'SAWSTN08' on second side of linedef 2758
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E1M5 - The Citadel
Line 11272 has no first side.
Line 11276 has no first side.
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E1M8 - Hell's Maw
Unknown top texture 'SUPP332' on second side of linedef 684
Unknown bottom texture 'SUPP332' on second side of linedef 1222
Unknown bottom texture 'SUPP332' on second side of linedef 1243
----------------------------------------

E1M9 - The Graveyard
Unknown top texture 'SAWSTN08' on first side of linedef 2884

happy to see you mapping. ive been a fan since you did that big doom2 map with the ultimate doom sky. thanks man. 

B2 bump!

What's wrong with chaos devices and firemace? I don't know, but this absolutely normal original things. Mace can shoot from around the corner, I like Mace for this, where else can be found such weapon! heh

Two boats at the beginning - it was an atmospheric episode start, if now this map go in M4 slot - ok, but it would be interesting now, if copy this boats in M3, where at the end player must sit into these boats and sail to M4 on them. Even better, make these boats as a feature of the entire episode, where player will cross between maps using these boats, and maybe at the end of M8 - he will find a large ship, and this will be the ending quest? he-he, just a couple of ideas.

M9: I remember, when I played this map for the first time - I hated it (with a smile, of course, not seriously), I understood, that map author had set a task for me and I just couldn't complete it, heh. But in general, here you have an interesting idea, the whole map is built on these wings, this is unusual. When I was able to complete your task - I was satisfied. I recommend - do not touch the current M9 wings balance for hard, possible add some more wings for medium and easy skills, it will be ok.

I'm actually screaming internally. I had actually lost any hopes to see this thing coming up, i loved Vordakk e Rem styles back in the day.

About my map feeling unfinished: while it wasn't, it sure felt like that from the very beginning (the large fake building at the start) and the walls being a lot greyer than necessary. Unfortunately i am pretty much dormant as a mapper right now, but i might be able to do something if needed (no promises toh).

Hey Cacowad, thank you for contributing your map to Ending Quest, this is our second collaboration after HYMN https://doomwiki.org/wiki/HYMN:_A_Heretic_Community_Project

There is a lot of good with this level (E1M6: Twin Peaks). I especially admire your ability to map at a scale fit for a giant. It really helps build that massive fantasy vibe that Heretic fans love. I'm trying to incorporate a larger scale into my mapping more often!

Indeed it is! Thank you for the compliment, always loved to scale thing up as much as i could ahhaha.

Little fun fact: i have used my hymn submission as a dnd map for an oneshot session (which went pretty well as a cobold nest).

Hi @Egregor, just clocked the 'follow' - thanks for that. Did a search for your user and found this thread. Sorry I missed this - it looks really interesting. I'll have a playthrough at some point.

Following...

I just played E1M1. I liked it a lot.

Starts off very familiar and rapidly expands into a nice big map. I played on HMP with GZDoom 4.4 and used freelook. I missed one secret...

One minor point - that might have been me missing something obvious - but I couldn't get out of the blue key room:

so I had to jump out of the window... Apologies if that broke the progression.

@smeghammer
Yeah, getting stuck in E1M1 BK room: this level was made by Rem and utilizes an artifact called a Chaos Device which teleports the player. Two of them can be found in that room and are intended to be used as the only way to escape it. I personally feel that their mandatory use may be too criptic for casual players. Because of this I have suggested all mandatory Chaos Devices usage be removed from the episode and that a teleporter be added to the BK room as a replacement, but PVS and others have suggested that Heretic mappers should lean into Heretic's assets as a way to defrienciate it from Doom. I'm personally torn on how to proceed, especially since this potential roadblock happens right at the beginning of the episode and could deter gamers from continuing the episode.

I would keep it. New Heretic players should try to make sure they know what the inventory items do, as many Heretic wads require that knowledge. However, you might be able to add a little more conveyance. For instance, you could have the two Chaos Devices up on small pillars where they are not reachable, and then when the player has done everything else in the room and grabs the blue key, they lower. This gives the player more of a nudge to show that the Chaos Devices should be part of the next step of progression.

Stuck? Need to climb on the blue key pillar and jump out in window from this pillar, not need ever Chaos Device! This is interesting and funny author idea , I like it, heh. Before, when this map was in M3 slot (if I remember it right) - this small puzzle (which makes you think) it looked fine, but now for M1 - this is maybe a bit unclear, I agree.

Egregor
Give me specific maps and things numbers, where Chaos Device (and also - Mace? as far as I understand) represent problems in your opinion, I do not remember any problems there at all. I will look at these maps again, will give my opinion more precisely and, if necessary, I will help. Maybe I just forgot the details, because it was for me over a year ago.

In my opinion, Chaos Device should not be used as the only and obligatory option for the player's movement, this is not a correct mapping. It should be used only as an auxiliary option for player: quickly move to beginning of the map, return from the end to the start, but only if player want it. In my version - no one Chaos Device is required to complete map, I don't remember this, it would be not correct.
 

I think I agree with @Not Jabba on this. Despite me getting stuck.

It was because I was in a Doom mindset and Heretic is definitely not Doom. I am guilty of playing it like Doom. I barely even used the health flasks...

As long as there is no way to get stuck by perhaps using chaos device before you get to this room (maybe have one hidden somewhere in this section?) It is a fair puzzle if you think Heretic.

New content bump!

v05 update bump!

Hello there, i got back a little into playing heretic and stuff, thought i could provide some feedback\bump the thread a little.
I played the first two levels, and then remembered to write something down, so... yeah. they will be a little shorter than the rest.

All maps were played in Crispy-heretic, HMP equivalent, continous without saves or otherwise stated.

M1:
I'm fairly sure the last time i played this one the starting portion was different! Player can get a bit stuck between the crates and the impassable blocking lines of the dock, but nothing game-breaking.
I see you removed the mandatory chaos device, probably a good choise.
Not much else to say, the map play perfectly no matter how many times i play it.
Unfortunately i forgot to screenshot my score. W\e, did about 90% of everything.

M2:

I do remember playing this one as well, every time i think it is about to be finished it always surprise the player with new sections.
I wish the player could go back from the exit area, but maybe i missed a chaos device or a teleporter. Could not find any secrets.

M3:

This is a new one, the main area is brutal and chaotic, i love it.
my first death happened here, and many others to follow (some traps can be brutal). As for my self imposed no-save rule (laziness) i wand started it after the first death.
Ammo is tight and bombs plentifull enough to clear the starting rooms before getting a real weapon, I found that the strategy that worked for me was to get some wand ammo, bolt into the claw + bombs area, ignore everything and go directly to take the enchanted shiled, then proceed to the start of the lava section to get the crossbow, after that i'll go to the yellow key area and go my way from there.
i had some troubles going to the blue key, as i initially thought i would need the green key first and stright up ignored the gun-switch (i also had some bad luck, if a stray projectile hit that switch, i sould have saved a good 15 minutes of wandering around), but hey, at least i managed to find some secrects.
Green area was also interesting, the ice gave me a good scare, did not expected it. I would have been in big trouble without the phoenix rod.
Overall, very solid map, gonna try it later in UV equivalent to see how it differ.

M4:

Since my sorry ass forgot to save before quitting, Wand start it is.
While i do remember the name, i don't remember the level itself, or if i player before.
Compact, dense, are the first words that come to mind playing this one, very little ammo, no weapons in sight and a whole lot of bombs. (Fun fact: did you know monsters do not get allerted if you only use bombs?)
Basically ignored everything until i found the crossbow, bombing my way in trought the golems, which was fun on itself. I think i died once to my own bombs this way.
Usage of artifact was spot on, a timely use of the shadowsphere will render some traps much easier.
The hight point for me was the area where the floor collapsed, very well done.

M5:

Good thing i had the crossbow from the previous map, as the start of this one have a big "you get nothing, good day sir." energy. The crossbow is heavily guarded, and the claw guarded by an iron lich. The starting area could benefit from some non-hidded bombs to facilitare the opening.
The balace on the second part was a bit off, as per the screenshot, i had too much of everything and nothing to use it on. I basically started facetanking everything with the tome always active.

TL;dr: more bombs at the start, less artifacts at the end.

M6:

Oh no, my map. After you contacted me, i started looking back at this thing, and i found i did not even implemented difficulty settings! big oof on my part.
I see you made some major redesign here, being able to explore both parts in whatever order was nice, and finding the secret exit simple. apparently i found only half of the secrets hahah.
Making the central part swamp damaging change the whole dynamic of the section, rushing the player forward in one of the two exits, it works pretty well.
Not a big fan of the marble textures used as stairs, they look a bit out of place.
The place going dark after the green key was unexpected, what more unexpected was that it made the whole map going dark and blinking, making the east part of the map like this would have been enough imho, as having everything blink is a bit jarring.
Ah, an additional note: sectors that were damaging will no longer be so once they start blinking.
The additionals details were nice, always welcomed.

M9:

So, wing of wrath level.
Got stuck immediatly in my first attempt by being caged with an angry maulotaurus. I managed to kill him with the leftover ammo i had from the previous level, but by then i had no way out. May i suggest dropping an additional wing there?
third attempt went well, i stumbled my way into the green key and used a chaos device i had to cut corners on the flight timing, until i got cocky and got ripped by the maulotaurus, damn he hurt a lot.
By the look of it, if someone somehow manage to rush the level, it wont be able to kill the maulotaurus due to insufficient firepower, not really a problem, just an observation.
Finally in the forth attempt i found the spare wing! still died miserably by the maulotaurus, they are tougher than i remembered.
Fifth attempt: went in every one as fast as i could, failed to grab the green key, went back to grab it and exited the level ignoring the maulotaurus.

Nice little level, the lack of additionals wings discourage exploring the map properly, and it is a shame, as there are nook and crannies filled with goodies around.

M7:

Ok the maulotaurus gave me a good scare. I am under the impression this level would be much better with a forced wand start, but hey one reason to play it again.
Tbh, i was kinda amazed by the sudden change of scenery, going into the open like that was pretty good.
Unfortunately the first attept ended right after the yellow door, when i ate a couple of red axes more then necessary.
Next attempt ended right after the elevator on my way to the exit of the yellow key area, got stuck trying to escape the disciples.
Third attempt ended ended at the blue key area, did not expected so many liches. But i took the hint and used the chaos device to get out the yellow key area.
Every new area is deadly and chaotic, i really appreciate it! The last run was even blesed by the elusive firemace.
Unfortunately the final room seems to be broken, i cannot return from where i came nor proceed to the exit, plus there is an hom effect on the bars of the exit teleporter.
All in all extremely pleased on how the map shaped up, good work.

M8:

All right, wand starting this one.
Ah the classic, no weapons, no items, final destination. I remember the start of this one well, absolutely soul crushing mass of enemies at the start and unconventional weapon progression, better make the powered wand and the unpowered phoenix road your weapons of choise, quick.
After getting the hang of it, it get better. The imps struggling with the wind tunnel will never stop to amuse me.
The run unfortunately ended after a long series of gauntlets, running past mauloturus left and right, by being shot in the face by a lich. This is going to be tought, i've restarted it around 10-ish times, and that was the further i got in.
Had another run that ended in the room of the four liches, after i got i close encounter with a disciple that basically telefragged me.
After a while i decided to save between sections, the map can be pretty long and draining otherwise.
I won't spoil the last few fights, but holy cow, it is intense from start to finish.
Exept... maybe the teleport locations of the final boss may need to be reworked a bit, i was playing hide and seek, landing a couple of shots before he teleported away again... at least remove the teleport location behind the lowering wall? Right now this fight is more tedious than difficult.
All in all, this tough as nail map will reward those of attentive eyes with plenty of tools to conquer it. But it is a massive difficulty spike when compared to every other map in the mapset.

Final words:

Iron lich/10 would get killed again.

In all seriousness, it was an extremely satisfying mapset to play into. Most maps do not need additional refinements on the graphic compartment, and some others will benefit from a pass on balancing.
Excellent work! Cheers!

Cacowad, just my humble opinion

If play map from the true "first attempt" standpoint (like you), or even - first attempt demorecording (like me), then in difficult situations this feeling sometimes arises - what a shit?! it’s no good, it’s too difficult, it needs to be rebalanced, heh. I have recorded many Heretic FDA's and such sensations arise for me often. For example, recently, I played blindly 2 maps: 'Fiery domus' and 'Obsidian fort' and I died 20 times on each: right at the beginning, closer to the middle and I thought - what is it? it needs to be rebalanced! I hope you know the author of these maps, heh. But sometimes, if play map a longer time - I can understand and see map author's ideas and like map more, I no longer need rebalancing, I'm sure many guys will understand what this is about.

ENDQUEST M6: it's fun that your map surprised you, heh. Dark and blinking was meant that not monsters - this is map itself wants to kill player with darkness, but there is a protection against this - there are 2-3 torches on the map and turns out, that a torch artifact - this is a powerful weapon! The whole map is against the player, so darkness is everywhere, the idea was like this. It would be nice if you would changed this map as you like, this is certainly not correct - if the original map author does not like how someone changed it, most likely - it was me. But I really liked this map, I honestly wanted to make it a little better, but it turns out that I only made it worse, sorry.

I don't remember any tech problems with these maps when I finished working with this wad, I'm sure - Egregor will make them much better, when he finishes his plans I will play them again with pleasure, hope, they stay compatible with vanilla engines.
 

Oh, hi.

5 hours ago, PVS said:

For example, recently, I played blindly 2 maps: 'Fiery domus' and 'Obsidian fort' and I died 20 times on each: right at the beginning, closer to the middle and I thought - what is it? it needs to be rebalanced! I hope you know the author of these maps, heh.

Heh. maybe i do, maybe i don't. Can't remember ahahah. But i hear they could be releasing something again soon(tm).

Tbh, i'm not complaining. I like mapsets that kills me on sight, i tend to lose interest quickly, so killing me or putting myself on a disadvantageus position work for me, so difficulty is fine as long it is not a "swim with the whales" type map (i could not put even a dent in that one). Just hope this does not come off as a negative, i really like this episode.

About the darkness on M6: it is unfortunate that voodoo dolls does not work well in vanilla heretic, otherwise it could be fine tuned to look much better, as the idea in itself is fine and good.

If i remember correctly, one can activated a doll standing on a strong wind by pushing it. A unreliable but effective way would be using gasbags, by exploding one so that it does minimal damage (but still move it) or maybe using something like a generator to attept moving the doll (not sure if this work, should try it).

Yeah, Doom scrolling voodoo not works in vanilla Heretic, I know, need use Heretic voodoo with wind. I used Heretic voodoo on 1-2 of my maps modifications, it works, but there is one bad moment: to make the voodoo start to move - used spore explosion and in this moment occurs minor real player damage from voodoo anyway, this damage may not be displayed on the real player HP counter, but in fact he receives it, player HP counter may shows 30HP, but in fact - he has 10. Since the player does not see the real value of his HP - he may strangely die, without realizing what happened, which is bad. Possible try compensate this moment by protecting the voodoo activation line with healers, for example, but need to be sure that the real player will catch them in all cases.

I remember this example (from your link), I always liked Heretic disco on M2 from this hcount.wad, heh. Also, you can see Heretic voodoo example by Kristus (hconvdem.wad), if you are interested and did not see this before:

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/prefabs/hconvdem
 

I played Heretic once when I was really young but didn't really know what was going on. I played it fully for the first time this year and loved it. A+ game despite what flaws there might be. After that I built a few mods for Heretic and delved into the mods for it more. 

I haven't beat the first map of this episode yet, but I was enjoying the ever loving heck out of it. Really good map design.

Glad to see a resurgence of interest of this set lately. For anyone interested I've continued to develop these maps in an effort to minimize the detail and quality discrepancies between the maps, finally focusing on level flow and gameplay. I will say it is harder to redesign flawed maps and gameplay than it is to build from scratch. With that said I should be able to release another update later this month which will feature a much more polished and consistent episode.

On 9/8/2021 at 5:32 PM, Egregor said:

Glad to see a resurgence of interest of this set lately. For anyone interested I've continued to develop these maps in an effort to minimize the detail and quality discrepancies between the maps, finally focusing on level flow and gameplay. I will say it is harder to redesign flawed maps and gameplay than it is to build from scratch. With that said I should be able to release another update later this month which will feature a much more polished and consistent episode.

I was planning to give this a shot (again) and record some demos, then post them here w/ my thoughts relative to the first version i played (the first version you posted here). Do you think it'd be more helpful for feedback if i wait for that version, then?